From Larry Wohlgemuth…
I love to take shots at fundies because of their big-headed belief in their omniscience. It’s so unbecoming. Now atheists are giving fundies a run for the number one spot on my list. Their increasingly vocal claims that ‘there is no God’ comes across just as dogmatically as the fundie that predicts eternity in hell unless we follow their prescribed plan for salvation. Polar opposite twins.
I’m not sure where these militant atheists who demand I believe as they do are coming from, but I welcome anything that provides me more material. I can mock the self-proclaimed all-knowing no matter what their beliefs. However it begs the question, what’s happening to atheists and why are they becoming increasingly outspoken?
For any who may not know my position, you can worship mountain oysters as your God if you wish, I really don’t care what you believe. I understand my beliefs are what they are; beliefs and nothing more. While I try to live by them I’ll likely pull the big kackaroo only to learn the extent of my fallibility. Maybe there will be some tiny part that I got right, however my shortcomings don’t scare me nor do I anticipate an eternity of torment for my error; it’s just another lesson.
However I have to speak up about something I’ve observed recently that’s happening in atheism, mostly made up of people that once seemed extremely comfortable in their own skins. I noted in an online discussion the other day another indication of the increasingly fundamentalist atheist meme that more than implied the rest of us should change for our own good.
A woman stated that all who held religious viewpoints were insane and that science was the only true answer. Did she mean the science that bled us with leeches to cure disease, or that refused to believe in things unseen, causing countless deaths due to postsurgical infections because physicians wouldn’t wash their hands? Maybe she referred to the research grant whores who’ve propped up industries like tobacco in return for large sums of money, or the thousands of scientists who wrongly predicted a global cooling disaster and impending Ice Age in the 1970s. I’ll give more credence to science when they can at least replicate the feat of building the Great Pyramid of Giza.
Another guy was arguing in favor of the Golden Rule. Did he understand its origin was religiously based, with the first documented instance being 5000 years ago?
“This is the sum of duty. Do not unto others that which would cause you pain if done to you.”
– Mahabharata 5:1517, from the Vedic tradition of India,
circa 3000 BC.
A woman interjected the possibility that the way you want to be treated is not the way I would like to be treated. Taking her valid retort a step further, what if I want to be treated merely as a faceless cog in a society-driven machine, then wouldn’t the Golden Rule demand I labor to ensure that you are treated similarly? It would be a recipe for disaster for a society that applied it literally, but this man was just as intent on forcing his belief on me as any fundie I’ve encountered.
Maybe a good place to start would be with the definition of atheism:
a•the•ism –noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
This definition is from Dictionary.com, but several others were the same; each using the word belief, disbelief or both in their characterizations, and isn’t that the crux of the matter? When you come down to it, when all is said and done, atheism is simply a belief. Now maybe I’m wrong and they have some proof, so I’ll give them an opportunity to present it here.
Waiting.
Still waiting.
That’s what I thought. They can’t prove their position any more than the fundies can prove theirs, or I can prove mine, ergo the word belief. The only time beliefs become dangerous is when one group tries to foist theirs onto others, which inevitably results in violence. I see that possibility in both religious fundamentalism and the growing militancy in atheism. Maybe we should all take a breath.
In case anyone is interested, or even cares, this is how far I’ve gotten. If I see a chocolate cake sitting on the counter then I know a baker is somewhere to be found; I don’t have to see her to know she exists. The fact of creation demands that there be a creator in my thinking. Beyond that I’ve taken various religious, philosophical and metaphysical concepts and cobbled them into a sustaining faith, but I don’t have a clue if it’s right. However when I look at images sent back from the Hubble telescope I rest comfortably in the understanding that it’s something impossible for me to know while I’m on the physical plane.
So please, spare us your proclamations of omniscience and enjoy the ride, because we think you’re just as full of shit as the rest of us.
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Just listen to yourselves. All you atheists ridiculing people for having faith. All the while you supply no evidence to support your claims. Your attitude blinds you.
Holy Shit you atheists ramble on. I mean Jesus Christ, you guys write 300 word essays for a comment and cant just accept not everyone sees themselves as being souless. Get a life. Do really feel the need to go on a gigantic rant just because someone doesn’t think the same as you???
And by the way, I see that there are atheists that are commenting here that agree with the spirit of the writer’s idea. So not all atheists are assholes. Just some.
@ Celestialbound, I am against any sort of discrimination, but that has nothing to do with my post. I was pointing out the behaviors I have observed that, frankly, I think work against you in your efforts to be recognized. I cannot speak to the validity of your claims about people losing their jobs, I’ve not heard about it. But it does not change the fact that atheists are being increasingly perceived in the same manner as fundies, and that will not serve you well.
In case you think I pick on only one side, take a look at my post about Bubba proselytizing me, and you’ll see it’s not the belief but the mindset I mock. Fundamentalism is what it is, no matter the core belief that inspires it.
http://itbegsthequestion.com/?p=735
Namaste.
Atheism is not a belief, it is the assertion that there has been no convincing argument advanced that a god exists.
There is not a core set of values to it. We don’t meet to discuss how we should behave.
The disbelief of one thing does not mean that it creates a belief in another. If I said that I don’t think fairies exist, that is not because of a belief- i.e. something that I think in the absence of evidence, but precisely because of the lack of evidence that I say that fairies do not exist.
It’s an opinion, sure. I couldn’t say definitively that no God exists. No one can. But in the face of no such evidence in favour I think it’s much more likely that I’m right.
No one is trying to make everyone an atheist, there is no process of conversion. Just keep your religion to yourself. Don’t have it try to be taught in schools, don’t try to have it introduced to my children, don’t try to interfere with the work of government. In my experience, atheists only speak up when theists try to impose their viewpoint on them- keep your delusions to yourself is all we ask.
Finally, on your point about the chocolate cake- if you take that logic to the natural conclusion, who made the cake maker? Who designed the designer, who created the creator- you’re left with an infinite regression.
@ David, maybe you didn’t read all I wrote, but I don’t care what anyone believe, however fundamentalist behavior is harmful to us all, even when it’s atheists, who are SOOOO much smarter because they have it all figured out, right? In that regard you sound more every day like Christian fundies, and THAT was my point. If you read through the comments you’ll see it’s a fundie hatefest, only it’s atheist fundies. Once again, don’t care what you believe, but bothered by the way you act.
Atheists are fed up with having to listen to people make arguments that have no rational or factual evidence supporting them. We are treated like smug, arrogant, elitists because we force people to back up their statements. You ask us for our evidence of our belief, is isn’t up to us to prove there isn’t a tea kettle floating around Jupiter, it’s your job to prove there is. The ONLY thing an atheist ever wants is for the people we converse with to view things with a critical and questioning mind. If you can’t do this then your views can’t change and you will stunt and stumble the growth and expansion of human potential. If we come off as smug maybe it’s because we know that at least our beliefs are being constantly evaluated for rightness and support.
Do I really have to point out that on the question of whether or not God exists one side or the other is actually correct, and the other side is quite simply mistaken. Thus to fabricate a kind of moral equivalence between atheists and Christians is a somewhat disingenuous tactic.
In my opinion, the reason that atheists are speaking more and more against religion or the belief in God is not because we believe that we’re omniscient or better than anyone else. It’s merely because we want an end to the atrocities committed in the name of God.
Religion (or lack thereof) should be a completely private matter. It should not impact public policy, nor force anyone to do things that are harmful. Yet it does. It’s on our money, it’s attempting its way into our schools, it is all pervasive, and in some religions, this is required (prostelytizing is a virtue, you know).
And the only way to stop it is to speak up and get angry about it. Believe what you want. But the very instant your beliefs mean that you don’t vaccinate your child (thus putting everybody else at risk by preventing herd immunity), or that you kick your 14 year old son out of the house because he declared himself an atheist, you have lost your right to believe in an imaginary friend, because now it is a moral and societal issue. That’s all we ask.
I think you missed David’s point – you can’t be a fundie atheist, because by definition, not believing in something is not a belief. I don’t collect stamps, but you don’t call me a non-stamp-collector. You mistake an atheist that shouts “show me the evidence” as a fundamentalist, and you think because scientists thought leaches would help that all science is bogus. But these show clearly that science is not fundie because it is willing to change when new evidence is presented. When you make a decision as to whether something is real or not, ask for evidence. That’s not fundie, that’s intelligence.
I would submit that if religious people are determined to equate atheism as being fundamentalist, then Atheists should qualify for tax exemption.
Yours Truly,
Agnostic
1. I love the analog — when you see a cake you think cook; so you delight in our chocolate existence and thank a “Creator”!
2. Still, how do “we” contend with those who want to exterminate us? Whether we are people of faith or non-believers, there really are contenders who want us dead.
3. To some of us, the implications of #2 give pause to ANY claim we hear on the part of murderers to any justification by faith. And today, the only voices I hear SCREAMING “Death to the Infidel!” happen to come from mosques. Like others before them however — the Papists, Huegenots, Mongols, Vikings — Mohammad’s followers too are calming down.
4. True, Science itself is deadly. Non-believers and believers together seem equally indifferent or helpless in the face of deadly science — Bhopal, Chernobyl, Seveso, not to mention urban air pollution and the desertification of the seas.
5. Our leaders are appealing everyone, not just some, but all. Where it is so clear, so clear, that we are all in this together. Do not call me an infidel just because I am free. Do not call me names just because I am different. We face this particular Holocaust together. Now we are all Jews. We are all the scapegoats of tyrants too ignorant to be kind…
6. And that is where the “do unto others” invocation comes a bit short. If the tyrants are not willing to inform themselves, well, men and women of grace and gentle dispositions, will have to shoot them.
7. The distinction is historical, traditional, and as modern as the internet. Those who seek to be informed, will invite dialogue and have no fear of ideas. Those who seek to oppress and poison everyone, including themselves, will invite violence and will be killed. Tyrants tend to kill and be killed.
8. How pale and weak the light has always been. So many are content to live in darkness. Think light. Think big.
Stress full times germinates controvesies.I did not create God,my ancestors created or perceived God,Scriptures supports,science we know perhaps cannot comprehend existence of God.We live in persistence ignorance,yet we recognise existance of God,my ancestors did the same.Let the controversy remain along with with our ignorance,let Atheists survive,God willing.